I'm so sorry, I tried to post this as a comment but it was to long so I'm making it a post. I tried to shorten it but didn't want to cut any of it out, so here it is. To every one else, I encourage you to read M.'s comment on my last post. She has a great testimony.
M. First, Hey! I miss you guys. I'll be out in October for my high school reunion and look forward to spending time with you and Justin. It will be around October 17 I so I hope you two can take some time and come see us. :) Thank you so much for sharing your opinion. You had some really great points and I am excited you felt comfortable enough sharing your beliefs knowing that they may be different than mine or others. It is encouraging me to see you step out in this way. I hope we can be an encouragement to others to speak up on these difficult subjects. I know your comment has been an encouragement to me. I like your reference to Matthew 7:1-5. It was these verses that spurred this whole comparison of judging and holding fellow believers accountable last Sunday. It is important to remember these vs.s are not saying do not judge. They are a heavy warning to remember that when we do, we need to make sure for what we are judging we are not condoning it in our own lives. "First remove the plank from your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers." You know, I don't think I have heard this part of your testimony so thank you for sharing it. I hope others will read it and learn from it. I'm not sure but I think you have the impression that your points are in contradiction to mine. I am sorry if I was not clear (that happens a lot). Though there were a couple things we differ on, what you shared is exactly my point. You dear friend was rejected for her homosexuality. It breaks my heart that she went to her church family for help and support and was rejected as she was. Warren Baldwin's comment speaks well into this kind of judging, judging where Christians put themselves above those they judge. You are right, to not have a friend based on anything such as sexual preference, race, or any of those things is wrong. God has been making me more aware in my mind and planted a desire in my heart for the church to share grace with non Christian homosexuals instead of shying away from them. After all everything I share on this blog is something that has already been a conviction to me first. I want to share and hope it can encourage others. I am very very excited you had your friend who supported you and brought you to a relationship with Christ. So is my brother. ;) I share that I do not have a friend that is gay not because I condone it or am proud of it. Indeed I am not and readily share this with you because I want to show you that these things I write of are indeed my shame, I readily admit to you that I have made bad choices. While I have NEVER rejected a person for being homosexual, I have also never openly gone out of my way to show the love of Jesus to a person who is gay. Maybe even, that is the same thing. As for a porn addiction I know I do have friends who probably do, but they don't share it with me. This is a challenge to not only me but to others to look at ourselves and ask ourselves, "What is it about me that would make me someone they would not go to for support?" I do believe that homosexuality is a sin but I am a firm believer in the old adage, "Hate the sin but love the sinner." I am a sinner and am thankful to those who love me despite. Jesus died for all of us out of love not judgement and you are right, the only one worthy to judge chose to die for us. That is powerful. The Bible does talk about a process of going to a believer, walking with them, holding them accountable and the point when it is needed to ask a person to leave, but I wouldn't be the right one to go over that. I've not studied it enough and am afraid I would get it wrong. As it says in Romans 3:10, "There is none righteous, no not one." When we encounter sinners remember we are as well. This is not about judging, its about holding our brothers and sisters in Christ accountable. I am not the one that judged what is and is not sin, God did that. He has made it clear in his word what can hurt a person, sin that is harmful to others and sin that hurts the person personally. Even if a sin doesn't hurt another person, it hurts that person and that person is just as precious as every other person. It is important that there is a very significant difference between Christians and non Christians when it comes to holding each other accountable. If you didn't believe in God then why would I hold you accountable to His word? I mean you generically of course, not you specifically. :) I agree with you that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. We alone are responsible for how we maintain it so if instead of seeing God's Holy Spirit in me, all anyone can seem to look at is my exposed cleavage or abs (which after having a baby I so do not have anymore... bummer)then I am not taking care to maintain the purpose of this temple and that is to share the Light of God's Holy Spirit. My pastor taught about this very subject and I may write a post to share what he shared and maybe my thoughts on it later. I think this is one of only two things we differ on. There is 100% no man on this earth that is not tempted by the flesh gay or straight. Having grown up with brothers, having almost exclusively guy friends all the way until college and now all the open discussions Dan and I have about men and temptation I firmly believe this. Guy's sex drive is so much stronger than ours as women (not all women I must mention, some women do have a very strong sex drive and thus can really relate to men in this). I love my husband, my brothers in Christ, my friends. If there is something I can do to help them keep their focus on God, I want to help and if that means not wearing a revealing shirt than I do it with joy and love. Indeed I am excited to do this service of dressing modestly. Honestly anything I can do to help when it comes to a relationship with God, I do it gladly and thankfully. It is not a real burden to me. Just as Paul said in Romans and again in 1 Corinthian chapters 8 and 9, I may have the freedom to do a lot of things but if something I have the freedom to do can make a another person stumble then I choose to refrain from it. Paul spoke of meat and alcohol but I think this applies to everything. The Bible is such a great gift offering insight into God's call for our lives. Sometimes its hard to navigate through. I often ask my pastor to help me find things like such sticky subjects as these. I encourage you to seek out your pastor or a trusted friend who is knowledgeable on scripture stuff. I especially like to vet all things like these things we are discussing because I am the first to admit I have been wrong and no doubt will be again. I know you mentioned that you know how you feel on these issues but are not entirely familiar with what the Bible says. I will ask around for what is the best study Bible. I am needing a better study Bible myself so I will let you know what I come up with. Thank you for speaking up and writing your comment. I appreciate you holding me accountable in this way. Give Justin a big hug for me. I will try giving you a call this week. Dan is gone for two weeks and Sarah is teething so needless to say things are a bit topsy turvy around here. I love you and can't wait to see you in October.
Comments
I think this is such a hot topic today in church because some of today's church culture has become a lot of: I want to make you feel good, God is love, and so forth type of theology.
People don't want to be told they are sinning and jump to the Matthew verse about not judging because we all sin. If that were the case we would never talk to another person ever about sin.
The difference in judging and accountability has everything to do with the person's heart.
For example: David and Nathan. David had blatantly commited adultry and killed another woman's husband. God used Nathan to hold David accountable for his sin.
Sometimes christians, even great ones are blinded by something they are doing, and as a believing friend who can see more clearly from the outside will go to the christian in love because it gives God more glory. We want our friend to stop and repent because it furthers their walk with God.
It is uncomfortable sometimes to hold someone accountable. But, I would say we are to hold those we "know" accountable, those we have a relationship with, those whom we know will hear with open ears.
Judgement comes from a heart that does not want that person better but wants to make that person feel horrible for their sin. Judgment comes from a lack of knowledge of the person being judged.
For example, the crowd who was about to stone the woman who commited adultry, they just wanted to judge her for what she had done, and legally had the right to do so. Jesus stepped in and asked who was there who was without sin to cast the first stone. And they all left. Some would use that verse as a sort of defence that we have no right to say anything to anyone because we all sin, but they didn't read what happened next. Jesus asked the woman, where are all your accusers? When she said they had all left he said, Go, and sin no more.
He didn't say have a nice day because I just saved your life from those judgmental people, he said you sinned, now turn from it and don't do it again.
That is holding someone accountable with the heart of Jesus. Saying, hey the Bible says so and so and I think you are maybe falling away in this area, and I would love to come along side you and help, and being vulnerable enough to realize you yourself could use accountability too. Hope this helps...
Sorry to be so late getting back into this discussion. There is a lot of meat here!
SIL raised some important issues. I appreciate her concern for how we treat others. I have seen in church where some are so quick to judge the actions of another without considering the heart of that person or even their own heart. Their judgment can come across as cold and lifeless. That is wrong.
I think you are right about the Matt. 7 passage. Jesus is not saying we can't ever judge, but that we must do so with proper spiritual guidance, motivation and heart.
We judge all the time. I judged when I selected my wife, just as she judged. We can't help but judge the friends of our children. As parents of 24, 21, and 16 year olds, Cheryl and I know (and have seen!) what a negative influence in the life of one of our children can do. Encouraging our children to stay away from someone does not mean we do not care for them, love them, or do not want to see them saved. We do want them saved! But, their may be things in their life that is not a good example for our own kids and could lead them from the path we have tried to steer them on.
Proverbs talks a good bit about "rebuke." I think of rebuke is a form of judging, but it presents judgment in the biblical, spiritual light God wants it in. I like the definition of rebuke given by Allender and Longman in their book, "Bold Love": "Rebuke is bringing truth to bear in a person’s life in the hope he will repent so the relationship can be restored." This is not judging to be condescending or place oneself above another; this is trying to lead a person to repentance and salvation.
Katie, I have 3 articles on rebuke on my blog, "Bible Fountain." I placed a short one there this morning. The other two are long. Here is the link:
http://warrenbaldwinbiblefountain.blogspot.com/search/label/Rebuke
Good articles here, Katie. Thanks for starting the discussion, and for having a sensitive heart on the subject.